Topic: -> Make Charms Work in PvP <- (taken from FC boards)

[Deamona]

Since a longer period of time I was thinking what is the role of a Crat in a PvP environment, which you have to agree is an important part of the game (Notum Wars and soon to be opened control areas in SL).
Its a fact that we were build for Crowd Control and I never expected much more. But most of the tools we have, dont work to well PvP wise (or not at all). To put it simple we are at the dead end of the 'food chain'.

That way I thought, why not make our most important ability work in PvP. Now dont scream, I dont want to control your character!

Here is my suggestion:

As a mind controller we can twist and bend the will of other creatures. Why not let the mind control nanos work in a different way in PvP, by simply confusing the target, causing it to lose his concentration and focus.

For example: Total Mental Domination (Stable line)

-250 Attack Rating
+25% Interrupt Modifier to all attacks and nanos
-15% Critical Hit Chance *possible addition to the line

DTP (Unstable line)

-150 Attack Rating
+15% Interrupt Modifier to all attacks and nanos
-10% Critcal Hit Chance *possible addition to the line

Afkors the numbers are debatable, but this would finally give us a way to use our main ability in PvP. We wont kill anyone by doing this, but hinder their damage dealing abilities in some extent. Thats all I ever wanted!

And another suggestion I saw on the boards:

Ability for droid to act as a "real" bodyguard and intercept attacks (afkors, while taking double damage). Every other profession has some way to 'stop' damage by using layers, heals, special shields and the Crat was left out in this field.

Remember that are just ideas to discuss.

Sincerely,

Deamona

Ps. If you would like to show some support, here is the link to the official FC boards topic: Click me!

[Joliie]

I dont want to control your character!

I would

[Piercingevil]

I think the biggest speedbump you will find in asking for a Crat to be more powerful in PvP is that their strengths in PvM are so good. Like an enforcer, when somone with really high HP, AR, NR, and run speed asks for more damage people tend to wonder why the other professions with weaker of those fields dont' even get it.

For example, before the fixer nuke and SL came out there were lots of fixers complaining about their lower end damage. But because (at the time) no one could hit them plus they were able to solo mobs like The Pest, there surely weren't going to get soldier-esque damage to push them to oh-too-powerful levels.

Will this be the same situation with a crat? I dunno. I know you guys do get some nice AR buffs, not to mention the ability to control the crowd pretty well. Being able to make the enemy in PvP lose focus wouldn't be like being able to control them of course, but their PvM status is already so great, adding to thier PvP ability when there are other professions that hurt pretty bad might not be the best idea.

But I don't know, I'm having a hard time convincing myself to play this game as of late, so I hope the changes Funcom makes in the rest of the patches help out.

[frakk]

Thinking I cant even crit a crat (oO that rhymes) now, and crats arent really that sucky in pvp. Crats are ubrest in pvm tho.

What is the worst thing a crat can come against in pvp? Doctors?

[Deamona]

You also have to consider, that after 220 there is almost no PvM and PvP is an important part of the game. No class should be left out in that field.

I know that most of my Xp / SK buffing perks will become useless, so ill end up as a jobless Xp service tower. But what now, reroll to a current flavour of the month?

In no way can I justify the fact that the main ability of the Crat dosent work in PvP. The change I asked for is just another defensive way of Crowd Control. In no way will it get someone killed or useless like other debuffs tend to do. Just a thing you would have to consider when entering the battle field.

I think that Obit and Primiss can voice their opinion here, since they know what happens to a Crat after entering a PvP zone.

Deamona

[frakk]

I think crats are good in pvp, with some practice, they can become valuable assets to Tower battles.

More useful than a rooted ma anyways

[Deamona]

I think crats are good in pvp, with some practice, they can become valuable assets to Tower battles.

More useful than a rooted ma anyways

Frakk you think or know?

There is a bit difference there. All I asked for, was a way for the main ability of the Crat to start working.
Almost anyone can root or snare at tower battles, if thats the role of a Crat at 220 why bother playing?

I hope you can look at this also form my point of view as the 'easy kill', that can only RoT and try to run away alive...

[Sparegris]

I love what you are saying Pevil.

 Givng Enfs EQB was the worst mistake they could ever have done in PvP, and PvM for that matter.
 Giving Engineers Mastery/Knowlege buffs is like giving NT's Mochams.
 
Every change they make affects gameplay in one way or the other.

[Deamona]

I love what you are saying Pevil.

 Givng Enfs EQB was the worst mistake they could ever have done in PvP, and PvM for that matter.
 Giving Engineers Mastery/Knowlege buffs is like giving NT's Mochams.
 
Every change they make affects gameplay in one way or the other.

I know where you are coming from Spare, but giving Crats (and perhaps Traders, since they also have a version of charms) a way to actually use their nano line at PvP wont shift the balance. Since all it allows, is a *deffensive* way to control damage to a certain extend.

It wont make Crats alpha anyone to death, but give them a chance to atleast *bite* back.

Ps. Lets not turn this into a whine fest of who has it worst.

[Punkbum]

U got calms that work in PvP, area calms, ams/dms (de)buff aura, a pet (or even 2 pets), a Cat with prolly same AR than an agent etc...

Now u want to cripple ur opponent even more?
I dont really think u need that.

But maybe you can show me where you guys are weak in PvP?

[Deamona]

Yes Punk, question: have you been actually playing the game or just looking at the database?

Becouse things tend to look different in game then on paper, but this was supposed to be a discussion thread (so im leaving it alone for now )

See you in game,

Deamona

Ps. Primiss, Obit please add to this topic if you can. Most of the people still dont know how Crats work (or actually dont) PvP wise and Im in no way entitled to speak for all of us.

[Kinkstaah]

I dont think anyone can argue that at the moment, now, in the past, or at 220, there have been sitations where crats have been kicking people's asses.

Deamona's suggestion is to make an already hard charm to land (on a player) actually have a noticable effect, similar to the way calms work now.

If you look at her modifiers, its not going to be a completely overpowering change, I think it would be quite nice.. in fact I dont think its really enough to make a crat a powerful pvp profession but it is a step in the right direction.

[Kinkstaah]

And in regards to spare - EQB was what enforcers actually really needed in order to be viable in pvp in an area that was not Tir arena.

Melee is such a massive disadvantage when you come up against a player who knows how to use range.

It is for this reason that MA's do massive damage at close quarters, enforcers should also pack incredible punch from close quarters.

Just because people are so stupid to continually fight enforcers and MA's from 2 feet does not mean the class is unbalanced overall. As frakk said, a rooted MA is certainly not overpowered.

[Bantram]

i've dueled crats before.  All my crat duels have been like this.

Rooted
pet starts hitting
nuke
nuke
nuke
nuke
unrooted finally
death.

I have never been able to hit a crat in PvP.  In mass pvp, their area roots and snares are so invaluable they can totally immobalize almost all martial artists and other non-root breaking classes easily.

I've beat enfs, fixers, martial artists, nts, and nearly all classes in pvp at least once in teh arena or in tower battles, but i've never killed a crat.

imo, there is nothing at all wrong with crats in pvp.  I think they should be nerfed a bit.

I just looked at a db and the calms are very hard to land on players.  I think instead of having that charm line work, calms should be made to easily land on people (even with hhab ring).

[Kinkstaah]

i've dueled crats before.  All my crat duels have been like this.

Rooted
pet starts hitting
nuke
nuke
nuke
nuke
unrooted finally
death.

I have never been able to hit a crat in PvP.  In mass pvp, their area roots and snares are so invaluable they can totally immobalize almost all martial artists and other non-root breaking classes easily.

I've beat enfs, fixers, martial artists, nts, and nearly all classes in pvp at least once in teh arena or in tower battles, but i've never killed a crat.

imo, there is nothing at all wrong with crats in pvp.  I think they should be nerfed a bit.

Perhaps bant, however look at it from a crat's POV.

They get smashed by *everyone* except the MA *if* they can keep the MA rooted. Deamona has exactly 0.0% chance of being an experienced hardcore PVP'er like Rekido, and if MA is the best profession they have got a chance at (and this is entirely due to MA weakness against roots)  then the class could probably use some help.

As I said before, you hardly see gank squads of UBER CRATS knocking out all of tir arena, and even if charms had some use in pvp (like calms now do to a certain extent) you would still not see uber crat death squads :p

[Punkbum]

I think they should be nerfed a bit.

lol, the innocence of that statement cracked me up

[Morelian]

Problem with  crats is yes they are uber in PVM.  PVP however they have problems.  No pets for them in Arena, and there goes 75% of their potential damage output.  PVP in Arena is put on a Cat and nuke/stun/AS and hope for the best.  I don't arena PVP anyway so that doesn't worry me much.

Problem is the place where crats SHOULD shine PVP wise-tower battles, it hardly works like you would think in theory.  Lag and server desynches make anything other than pressing Q unworkable-occasionally you'll get a nice battle in BF or CAV where the lag isn't too bad and you can charm a couple pets, root the noobs, and gas hug while your pets demolish some noobs but that doesn't happen very often...

Most zones where the big fights occur don't have any pets nearby and the lag is so bad you are at reclaim while you think you are still rooting the other guys  Usually the good potential pets have been killed off by the folks just arriving to zone so nothing good to charm is anywhere handy.

Crat PVP is more finesse than anything and current game conditions, lag, tower wars, etc. are the biggest  hindrance IMO than lack of options.  Same reason I hate tower battles with my doc, heals with long recharges are aweful when you have to deal with lag, and healing corpses is the pits since you have a 8 second recharge to run from the next alpha.   PVP on the adventurer or soldier isn't so bad-press Q and die like a good clanner

[Bantram]

yes, roots would do very little vs any class with range and if i had UWoS, they would do very little against me.  In mass pvp crats are very good but in arena pvp, they do kinda suck.

I really suck at pvp, just cuz i said i've been beaten by many crats doesn't mean the average MA would be.  There are not words in any language to point out how much i suck in pvp.

[Sparegris]

Just because people are so stupid to continually fight enforcers and MA's from 2 feet does not mean the class is unbalanced overall. As frakk said, a rooted MA is certainly not overpowered.

But enfs got Rage to cancel this root , giving them massive runspeed and even more NR to resist a new root.
I still stick on my statement , EQB was way overpowered.

Still crat calms have a -2100 Init on them , yes they break when you attack but you can use that single attack you have to use only AS for example and recalm him.  

I dont want to use it and say we traders also can use it cause most people know why by now traders dont use mind control , and that will never change the fact that we will be stunned if we use it.

When i say it was a mistake giving enfs EQB was they was uber in PvP and then also uber enough to tank and be one of the highest damage dealers still. When they removed EQB practicly more than 50% of the enfs whined and bitched so much and they left for another more "uber" char again. Because they was not those God's anymore.  a Enf should tank , not be the main damage dealer.

[Kinkstaah]

Just because people are so stupid to continually fight enforcers and MA's from 2 feet does not mean the class is unbalanced overall. As frakk said, a rooted MA is certainly not overpowered.

But enfs got Rage to cancel this root , giving them massive runspeed and even more NR to resist a new root.
I still stick on my statement , EQB was way overpowered.

Still crat calms have a -2100 Init on them , yes they break when you attack but you can use that single attack you have to use only AS for example and recalm him.  

I dont want to use it and say we traders also can use it cause most people know why by now traders dont use mind control , and that will never change the fact that we will be stunned if we use it.

When i say it was a mistake giving enfs EQB was they was uber in PvP and then also uber enough to tank and be one of the highest damage dealers still. When they removed EQB practicly more than 50% of the enfs whined and bitched so much and they left for another more "uber" char again. Because they was not those God's anymore.  a Enf should tank , not be the main damage dealer.

This is spoken by someone who has never done pvp (moreso mass pvp) as a melee char.

I saw gunn's trader kill quite a few UBER EQB ENFS simply by sneaking and landing a drain then a root before enf could really rage. Then enf was completely, 100%, totally dead - But thats aside the point.

Playing an enforcer in laggy NW was tough even with EQB. Running into a wall of AS'sed and Aug Fury's REALLY REALLY HURT, simply because when you run into a pack of omnis, they all target you.

All I could ever do was hang back in the crowd, and try to pick off stragglers. That was my 'role'. I knew I would be good if I could get close to someone and keep them there, which I could. I could even kill a few people, but I had to play smart. It's the same situation as now, except enforcers effectively have no damage. I will never forget attempting to kill a GREY MA, chasing them through numerous ENTIRE RK ZONES.

Certainly not "God Like". Very very good from 2m with challenger, flurry, rage, and unnerfed EQB. But good PVPer's dont get into a situation like that :p

However lets not diverge - I think deamona's suggestion is good, I like the idea that things INTEGRAL to a professions toolset have SOME pvp application and are not rendered completely useless :p

[Bantram]

However lets not diverge - I think deamona's suggestion is good, I like the idea that things INTEGRAL to a professions toolset have SOME pvp application and are not rendered completely useless :p

yeah!  and lets make xp buffs add 100193258021935709 hp in pvp!

the entire charm line being useless does suck and it would help Crats kill me even faster (like i said, i suck)

[Deamona]

However lets not diverge - I think deamona's suggestion is good, I like the idea that things INTEGRAL to a professions toolset have SOME pvp application and are not rendered completely useless :p

yeah!  and lets make xp buffs add 100193258021935709 hp in pvp!

Remind me or Primiss of that Bant bant, when you need help in the catacombs next time!

But seriously guys, I understand the 'dont give to others, my profession needs more attention' mentality. But just try to look at it from our point of view, most of the Crat abilities dont work already in PvP and the rest will be useless at 220 (even in PvM).

I think its not that hard to understand what happens to people that have not much to do in the game... The proposal I made sounds about fair and logical, its no way overpowered as Kink said (and on the contrary to some people posting here, he knows something about PvP).

[frakk]

Well, then someone comes and says: what if a ma uses a cater, then they are deadly at a range.

Well.

My answer is: Nerf cater, leave the bows with the incredibly long as recharge for the mas. We need it.

[Linolea]

hehe funny how this thread brought up some more EQB inequities, when its been nerfed for a long time allready. sorry to derail but EQB, even though it was overpowered, was nerfed too much if you consider mass-pvp. sure it was fast, had a huge damage output, but you got to consider that it needed the enf to both be in range, and to go full agg, exposing himself to roots, snares, debuffs, and damage, which kinda hinders getting in range id say heck if i used bloodbats there was a reason, against experienced pvpers i had no chance at all using EQB. But anyway back to the topic.
If you consider a class in pvp you should look at it generally, and independently of weapons, or rather in function of what weapon they are "supposed" to use.
The picture of a PvPing crat is quite different if you look at one using a Caterwaul, or one using a PoP imo.
Otherwise you could whine about MA's and Enfs being overpowered cause if they used Caters they'd probably be.
Now from that point of view, Crats could use some kind of usefull nano in PvP, not too much, cause the balance between PvM and PvP usefullness should still be there, and you shouldnt have the best of both worlds, but charms working in some kind of way that actually makes em worth casting is not a bad idea imo.
just my 2 cents.

[Morelian]

I should add I don't see any problem with Deamona's suggestion, as I don't think it would really seriously augment crat PvP abilities nor make them overpowered.  Effect would be small, and really with the recharge time on the charms, not sure how much I'd use them if I had them available.

MA's would probably be one of the easier professions for crats to go up against.  Root/Stun/AS

With HHaB rings, nukes won't be much of an option for crats.