Storm

 
Please login or register.

Author Topic: EULA and stuff  (Read 8759 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Wolfe

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1818
  • Cyb0r Points: +3/-0
EULA and stuff
« on: September 17, 2003, 12:45:07 PM »
Hi!



Im Wolfe and Im a..   reposting this little essay



Uuuh, not really. I have spent some time thiking about things I like and things I dont like with various developers of the MMOG's I have been playing over the years. Funcom is just one of many such companies and I guess this little message isnt directly aimed at them only, but maybe they might benefit from understanding some of it, altho lately their ability to undestrand things seems to have shrunk so I doubt they would.



An online game like AO, EQ, UO, Lineage (4 million subscribers btw, wewt for that) and others pit players against eachother in a large number of ways. The technical way of calling it "PvP" is just a tiny and next to insignificant aspect of this interaction so lets ignore that aspect of player interaction for this little essay.



When players become involved and establish competition between eachother its kindof important that the people who create the setting knows that the involved players will do whatever they can to gain ground towards the objective of defeating the opposition. The people who create the setting and the rules have to define parts of the rules in such a manner that breaking them invokes penalty, if it dosnt then remove that particular rule so it no longer affects the participants of the game.



Funcom has had a very bad habit when it comes to defining rules for the players. Last time I read the relevant parts of the EULA I could summarize the rules as beeing:



"Funcom will ban anyone if Funcom so please, Funcom does not promise to stand by any of the rules Funcom pretends to abide by unless if Funcom so wishes. Players can break specific rules, or players can displease Funcom and in either case Funcom chooses if and what action they will or might take depending on circumstances Funcom feels like caring about at the particular moment."



To play Anarchy Online you have to click the >"I agree to these terms"< button.



Most people will read the EULA and think "Funcom's game, Funcom's rules and I want to play much enough to agree upon those rules", or "I just dont care about the rules and will play anyway and hope they dont come to mess with me".



The EULA and the "rules" are fine and dandy until players invest alot of time and effort into creating something within the framework of the game. However once the creation stands and you look around to see what you created you take a peek at that EULA again and understand that what you created is worth s*** as long as it stands within the framework of the EULA.



My personal perspective on the framework Funcom has given us players dosnt really relate to any RL kind of historic situation. However the way Funcom has decided to use their EULA and the knowledge that players have clicked the "I agree" button before playing the game reminds me of stuff I think someone wrote in a book called something like The animal farm or something similar. Kindof.... Everyone is equal in the farm, but some are more equal than others.



The ideals that consumers abide by no rules unless Funcom decides to invoke rules to "guide" the development of the ingame culture seems nice, fine and somewhat anarchistic. However those ideals survive only for as long as they are upheld by the people who have authority to take action within their limitless limitations. Very few humans are anarchists at heart and once someone gets to the position where they can decide to be the main anarchist or choose to be something else most will coose the latter.



When we add the component of high level "hardcore" guilds into the equation of the ruleset I can without hesitating saying that many of the involved players will play in a manner that somewhat can be compared to how 100m dash sprinters runs when there is some kind of athletic competition. Everyone who stands on the line to run will try to run the fastest, you tend to run faster if you practice alot and take steroids or dope yourself thru other means, however there are risks involved and in our real life kind of competitions there are strict and relatively formal rules that says "if we catch you beeing doped your disqualified" luckily enough at least those rules are the same for everyone who runs. In Anarchy Online those rules are not written, altho if someone runs its up to the "Anarchist" in the control room to decide if they deserve disqualifying or not, totally without any rules or regulations that sets the framework for the competitors.



Other games I have played have had a better way to manage the regulations and I myself can no longer make myself click that "I agree" button to play Anarchy Online, I dont agree with the terms and I encourage other players to read the EULA and spend some time considering what kind of stuff they have agreed to with their investment of time.



I would encourage anyone who has the position to create EULA and similar things for whatever products that the things they make people agree to also sets the standard for what value the product has in the mind of the consumer. Due to abuse from the other side of the EULA I myself find the value of the agreement plus the value of the product to result in a product that has a value beeing less than zero.



AO has been a rather good game at times, but its not good enough to make me press that "I agree" button and really play anymore. Maybe someday I will reconsider but right I now I have my doubts.



Funny thing is that if I were to mention my concerns to the anarchist at whatever Funcom considers to be some official location they would just counter my agruments with "Its a grassroot campaign against us so we either ignore it or we decide to punish it by banning random accounts or threatening to do so."



The policies Funcom abides by disgusts me.



Wolfe

Offline Spizmack

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 854
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2003, 04:42:33 AM »
FC reminds me of the annoying kid on the playground who made up rules to a game as he went along, always to his own benefit.



But it is true that nobody really takes the time to read the EULA. Who knows what I really agree to every day?

Offline Buglight

  • Rookie
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2003, 02:17:38 PM »
You've quit over a very good and moral reason.... kudos to you for standing up for your ideas. Pitty I never actually got to know you as my leader :(





Best Regards,

Buglight.
Buglight ...

To quote Cal:  I R STORM :)

Offline Kuru

  • Da ride iz chillin'
  • Grandmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 3222
  • Cyb0r Points: +76/-8
EULA and stuff
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2003, 02:39:25 PM »
Vague meanings to policies is a common tactic used by businesses in order to legally say, "We can do whatever we want."

Offline Wolfe

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1818
  • Cyb0r Points: +3/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2003, 05:41:06 PM »
Who said I quit?



I just dont agree with some things. Altho I guess technically im not really playing at this time, however everyone should spend some time and consider the meaning of that EULA some, especially anyone who creates valuable content for Funcom without maybe even knowing it.

Offline Khastity

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
Clarity
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2003, 06:43:01 PM »
Quote from: Wolfe
Who said I quit?



Well if you aren't quiting what does this mean?



Quote
I myself can no longer make myself click that "I agree" button to play Anarchy Online,  
[/color]



Seems as if you allude to quiting here to me..... which makes me :( but you need to do what you need to do....but what exactly does this mean?



Quote
I just dont agree with some things. Altho I guess technically im not really playing at this time
[/color]



Hmmm..... :?



The last time I learned the English language "Quiting" meant ceasation of a particular activity. In this case you allude that would mean AO. Unless of course you have a way of explaining "Playing" which reeks of a "Clintonesque way of explaining Sex"



lt seems I am not the only one confused by this as Buglight says:



Quote
You've quit over a very good and moral reason.... kudos to you for standing up for your ideas.
[/color]



and your reply is



Quote from: Wolfe
Who said I quit?
[/color]



/me thinks an inserted image of Wolfe backpeddling would be appropriate here



Hope this catches you at a moment when your humor is fully with you.



 :twisted: Khastity :twisted:
Khastity-Proud Unit Member of Storm



Thanks Dynizmo for the siggie

Offline Dragonfly

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 822
  • Cyb0r Points: +87/-11
    • http://angelfire.com/comics/aostories
EULA and stuff
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2003, 01:42:32 AM »
u forgot to add something again wolfe so i ll add it for u



CZ is a n00b

Genevra is a bitch

Fadinaway is a griefer

Offline Wolfe

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1818
  • Cyb0r Points: +3/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2003, 11:02:44 AM »
Storm and AO are different things. AO is nothing but a tool for the guild, right now the tool is fundamentally borked so we'll be finding better tools and realising this I hope FC takes a look at what makes their game a bad tool for players like myself. Or maybe FC dosnt care about players like myself and then I'll just move on, I'll just bring Storm along.



Most people say they quit and that means they no longer involve themselfs with the guild, im not one of those.

Offline Buglight

  • Rookie
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2003, 11:29:42 AM »
...



So where we going :) ??  WoW ?
Buglight ...

To quote Cal:  I R STORM :)

Offline kini

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1385
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
    • http://www33.brinkster.com/kinbari/artindex.htm
EULA and stuff
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2003, 11:29:59 AM »
Please do me a small favor and get off of Wolfe's choice of words.  He is Swedish after all and they have like 5 words in total in Svenska.  :P   I find it very impressive and also very annoying how he can be fluent in 2 languages.  Storm is more than AO eventhough I learned of it through this game.  It goes back through other games like EQ and UO and it extends through other games like Lineage2 and SWG... and who knows where else we will end up.



If it sounds like hes 'quitting' or 'backpeddling', it makes little difference.  He has stated his opinions and if you do not agree with them, continue to enjoy your gaming experience and do not let them influence you.  However if you are displeased with FC and the things they do, and want to try a Storm experience in a different game setting-- I'm sure Wolfe will let us all know what next game he will like to make an impact in. ^___^
WoW Fashion Show - Woodland


Offline Punkbum

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1423
  • Cyb0r Points: +5/-1
  • Wasted!
EULA and stuff
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2003, 12:10:12 PM »
Lets code our own game and lets all be GMs !!! YAY!



no but seriously it is not funny what Funcom (and not only funcom) pulls off in the EULA. They reserve the right to fuck you over, ingame only of course, but then again i have to remind myself i put alot of time into AO (like wolfe allready stated) so FC can just press a few keys and delete or screw over all of my time spent and even the guilds time spent.

This SUCKS !!! But can we do anything other than cancel our payments? NO. (yea sending emails! as if they would actually read them, they ll prolly ban u if u write something like that)



Whats the reason funcom writes stuff like that in the EULA? Prolly to prevent lawsuits against them and such. If they do anything to us (deleting stuff, banning u for no reason) we CANNOT do ANYTHING against it!



Thats what i read when i read the EULA, but then again i pressed that agree button so many times, i wont stop now, unless Storm decides to move to another game and i feel like following.



just my 2 cents
"The FBI and police threatened, instigated, and themselves conducted break-ins, vandalism, assaults, and beatings. The object was to frighten dissidents and disrupt their movements. In the case of radical Black and Puerto Rican activists (and later Native Americans), these attacks?including political assassinations?were so extensive, vicious, and calculated that they can accurately be termed a form of official 'terrorism'." (Cointelpro: The FBI's Secret War on Political Freedom)

Offline Wolfe

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1818
  • Cyb0r Points: +3/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2003, 07:08:58 PM »
Im looking at possible upcoming titles. The existing ones are all suffering from either old age or boredom. Lineage2 is due with an US launch in a few months or so, and WoW is kindof coming closer and looks like it will become the best one yet.



And FC has written their EULA as they please, what appals me is how they please to ban people rather than help them. And im not talking about exploiters in this case.

Offline Stongrel

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1680
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-1
EULA and stuff
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2003, 07:24:47 PM »
Wolfe quiting?  lol  He's just posting propaganda against FC's shitty policies and way of doing certain things.



Why do you think Wolfe is posting this here?  Because FC employee's... even those in question, frequent these boards as well as over half the ao community.  Its a great medium to get your point accross.  If he were to post his anti-FUNCOM (not anti-AO, beef is with those running the game) on the official boards, CZ and the other noobs would just delete it faster than a worm virus.



Time and time again several people in Funcom abuse the EULA, changing it, editing to cover their own asses.  Time and time again players both clan and omni, get fucked because some imcompentent moron in FC makes a mistake and sacrifices the customer instead.  Certain individuals in FC make special exceptions for their "friends" because FC allows those in power to play and interact with guilds on a personal level.  Because Funcom treats their customers like crap, when they have the smallest subscriber base and cant afford to.



Wolfe's not quiting.  Only reason I'd see Wolfe not playing AO anymore is unless any FC troll does him in.  Yes Genevra (lying wh*re I wish cancer on you), CZ (you wank)... you and your posse couldn't get a job with any other online company.  Hell Genevra is single handedly responsible for the destruction of thriving AO community.  Thanks you c*nt.



Oh and thanks Scott Junior.  Editing the EULA cleansed you of having to replace my Zeno account huh.   :twisted:



Spread the gossphel wolfe.  Plenty of players both omni and clan that have been done wrong.

Offline Khastity

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2003, 11:08:13 PM »
Quote from: kini
Please do me a small favor and get off of Wolfe's choice of words.  


It is not Wolfes choice of words that bother me but the course of action which he has set himself up to do but cannot follow through with

Quote from: wolfe
I guess technically im not really playing at this time
Playing or not playing is kinda like being pregnant....you either are or you are not but Wolfe states that he
Quote from: wolfe
can no longer make myself click that "I agree" button to play Anarchy Online.
If he cannot click the agree button then he cannot play...ergo he is protesting against AO & FC by such action as to quit AO and FC. Which is a valid action considering the topic. However, He stated he couldn't click the I agree button. Yet
Quote from: wolfe
Who said I quit?
In short .... he said he was quiting AO by being unable to click the "I accept" Button.



Which brings me to my point. This sort of threat and inability to follow through on the threat promotes confussion in the AO community at large.
Quote from: strongrel
Because FC employee's...  even those in question, frequent these boards as well as over half the ao community. Its a great medium to get your point accross. If he were to post his anti-FUNCOM (not anti-AO, beef is with those running the game) on the official boards, CZ and the other noobs would just delete it faster than a worm virus.



However anyone on the AO community that has read his EULA thread and then sees Wolfe on AO playing or any of his alts that they may know of  then they become confused by his inability to stand by his conviction.



Worse yet, any FC employee that sees him on AO "Technically not playing" contrary to Wolfes stated opinion and stated course of action. Begins to think they are getting away with exactly what we do not want them to. This sends a message to FC that we ultimately cannot do a "d*mn" thing against further abuses of the EULA. And every other company out there that produces these games sees that they can do the same in the future.

Quote from: kini
He has stated his opinions and if you do not agree with them, continue to enjoy your gaming experience and do not let them influence you.


Well that came through loud and clear Kini. In other words "Khatity STFU"  Well I can't blame you for wanting to say that... :wink: ..I have thought long and hard over how I have presented my case or whether I have wished to cross swords on this issue in this forum...... :?



but Kini I am not inclined to STFU for your comfort nor for Wolfe's ...His oppinions do influence me based on the above paragraphs. He is a strong leader and has done extremely well by his members, Storm and Tempest alike. I am personally proud to be a Tempest member and am working hard at my post in Tempest as best I can to help it to continue to flourish. The more it can flourish the more quality recruits there are to go where Wolfe says we are to go in the future.



However, in this instance to see Wolfe cast a threat that, IMO, can absolutely go no where and ultimately do nothing to change the situation weakens the force of his convictions and ultimately his word. I cannot sit idly by and watch. For many of you it may seem I am undermining Wolfe....quite the contrary that is in no way my intention.



Khastity
Khastity-Proud Unit Member of Storm



Thanks Dynizmo for the siggie

Offline Tolbat

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 963
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
    • http://www.lax-lan.tk
EULA and stuff
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2003, 11:24:54 PM »
heheh i dont even know whats in the EULA o.0 (im one of the st00pid d00ds who presses accept to anny EULA whitout reading it ;).. So the AO EULA could be about spaming my HD whit viruses and spy programs for all know :P)



well i follow one rule, If its Fun i play it, if its not dont play it :D



dont even know why i posted this.. but maybe somone will read it and think about why they play AO o.0

Offline Elisabeth

  • Grandmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 2508
  • Cyb0r Points: +6/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2003, 11:41:36 PM »
Khastity, what are you doing? Show some respect. State your opinions by all means, but picking like that on Wolfe is not necessary to make a point!



Quote
Playing or not playing is kinda like being pregnant....you either are or you are not

It is possible to take a break from playing a game, you can not take a break from pregnancy if you feel sick or annoyed.



Quote
can no longer make myself click that "I agree" button to play Anarchy Online.

Did you ever think that he ment "Can, at this time, no longer make myself..."?



Quote
Who said I quit?

No one said Wolfe is quitting, nor does he imply it in his post. He does however imply he is on a break and is possibly thinking of quitting.



Quote
For many of you it may seem I am undermining Wolfe....quite the contrary that is in no way my intention.

If many thinks you are undermining Wolfe, maybe you should rethink your stragegy if you mean not to.



You are inclined to STFU for your OWN comfort, because showing this attitude against Wolfe or Kini will make you enemies!

Online Caloss2

  • Administrator
  • Grandmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4641
  • Cyb0r Points: +108/-102
  • Old Fugley
    • MY VIDS
  • Anarchy Online: Caloss2
  • AO Alts: Caloss2 220/2x/xx Melee adv Llewlyn 220 meepmeep Boooocal 220 So Knack 220/xx/xx Keeper
  • Steam: Caloss2 (dah)
EULA and stuff
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2003, 01:00:38 AM »
Quote from: betty
Khastity, what are you doing? Show some respect. State your opinions by all means, but picking like that on Wolfe is not necessary to make a point!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree  with betty, and just look my avatar in the eye for a moment... as it's actually me with the same expression I have while I write this post...



Quote from: betty
You are inclined to STFU for your OWN comfort, because showing this attitude against Wolfe or Kini will make you enemies!



You may count upon it.



cal2

Offline Aegd

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 2459
  • Cyb0r Points: +21/-5
EULA and stuff
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2003, 01:05:19 AM »
lets all cuddle and be friends <(O^_^O)>
Lionel what are you doing? Snurv snurf!

Offline Kit

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 927
  • Cyb0r Points: +1/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2003, 01:05:45 AM »
I cancelled my account as many people know, but that doesn't mean I'm quitting. I love Storm and I would miss AO, even if I don't currently like it.



I still think WoW looks amazing, so it's nice to see Wolfee agrees :X I'd be very into bringing Storm to WoW in the future. =)

Offline Hardpipe

  • Drunken Pirate
  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1476
  • Cyb0r Points: +24/-33
  • lol -_-
    • http://www.hookupsskateboards.com/
EULA and stuff
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2003, 01:10:05 AM »
I hope WoW isnt gonna be on normal b.net servers...the lag would be crazy
Still groping for blood alcohol poisoning...

<a href="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/" target="_blank" title="Sloganizer - the slogan generator"><img src="http://www.sloganizer.net/en/style5,Hardpipe.png" border="0" alt="generated by sloganizer.net" title="This slogan was generated by sloganizer.net"/>[/url]

Offline Spizmack

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 854
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2003, 02:48:26 AM »
Quote from: Khastity
Stuff goes here



...



ummm...



...yeah..



k



Wolfe never threatened anyone or anything. He wrote an essay about FC's screwy ways at times which brought up some good issues. If I were to go on vacation for a month and not play AO at all, would I be quitting? No I wouldn't, and nor is anyone else who doesn't log in as much, or at all...especially after all this SL crap. Actually we might all be better off "quitting" for a month until FC fixes everything  :lol:



/me inserts picture of Khastity backpeddeling







And yes. WoW looks WOW. Hopefully it will be as awesome as it seems. I know I'm definetly gonna try it, even if it means having to cancel my 2nd AO account[/quote]

Offline Tox

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 823
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2003, 02:59:34 AM »
Usually I don't go mod nazi but this is a pretty important post. On topic people :P
- -  -   -    -     -      -       -        -         -           -

Offline Okonkwo

  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 1099
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
EULA and stuff
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2003, 03:56:38 AM »
FC have been very irresponsible with administering their rules in the past. Ive seen them do stupid things and Ive only played the game for a year.



Whenever they are faced with a problem or a challenge to their rules, they will simply modify the rules to make the problem go away or they will ban the perpetrator guessing that the same scenario will not repeat itself.



Anyone with half a brain can see the fundamental problem with that. The game cannot progress because they are free to do whatever the hell they want whenever the hell they want. There is no suzerain-vassal relationship.



We acknowlege the fact that its their servers. BUT. We want them to put down a set of rules for us to play by and keep them that way for the duration of our stay. I think its unethical to just change them as they see fit. We have put so many hours and dollars in to our accounts, the least they could do is treat us fairly and try to consider each account as valuable.



But then again they have a business to run so I bet they are more afraid of someone suing than anything else. So immediately a problem arises: Ban the account! Modify the EULA to allow us to ban the account in this situation! Phew close one!  8)



Problem solved
life is messy...



Okonkwo

Tembo

Offline Khastity

  • Storm Member
  • Experienced
  • ****
  • Posts: 676
  • Cyb0r Points: +0/-0
Retraction = backpeddling
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2003, 04:07:54 AM »
I have not retracted my statements, whatsoever. So in no way could I be accused of backpeddling.



However, I have been threatened by 2 of Storms members in this thread  for having stated my opinion. Those opinions still stand firm.



Khastity
Khastity-Proud Unit Member of Storm



Thanks Dynizmo for the siggie

Online Caloss2

  • Administrator
  • Grandmaster
  • *****
  • Posts: 4641
  • Cyb0r Points: +108/-102
  • Old Fugley
    • MY VIDS
  • Anarchy Online: Caloss2
  • AO Alts: Caloss2 220/2x/xx Melee adv Llewlyn 220 meepmeep Boooocal 220 So Knack 220/xx/xx Keeper
  • Steam: Caloss2 (dah)
Re: Retraction = backpeddling
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2003, 08:36:06 AM »
Quote from: Khastity
I have not retracted my statements, whatsoever. So in no way could I be accused of backpeddling.



However, I have been threatened by 2 of Storms members in this thread  for having stated my opinion. Those opinions still stand firm.



Khastity



You have been warned, not threatened.

You have been warned about the tone with wich you voice your opinions. Not those opinions in themselves.

You seem to feel you have the right to make personal criticisms, and if anyone makes the same criticisms of you, your stance is to attest that you are being threatened.

It would be a foolish mistake to assume that presenting yourself in a martyric light would make your former comments in any way less macavelian.



Again, you have been warned.



Cal2

 

SMF 2.0.12 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines
ModernDark64 design by Bloc
Page created in 0.128 seconds with 27 queries.